Vorbote
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Post by Vorbote on Aug 16, 2010 18:14:48 GMT -6
What if the Zaku's had been built like GMs? You know, same materials, armor, all that, and actual beam rifles rather than machine guns.
Think about it. The war would have been a lot less one-sided, am I right?
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Rabite
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Post by Rabite on Aug 16, 2010 22:24:29 GMT -6
*points at Gelgoog*
That's what you get if you're looking for a Zeonic GM, but still you're lacking Amuro's data feedback, and you get a Shield with Anti-Beam Coating to replace the Luna Titanium Shield.
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Post by Carlos on Aug 16, 2010 22:28:25 GMT -6
Wouldn't the Action Zaku be the GM?
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Rabite
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Post by Rabite on Aug 16, 2010 22:35:04 GMT -6
I think the Action Zaku is a bit over, since that thing had Magnetic Coating, so it seems kind of more like a GM CCT or even GM Custom level of unit.
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Post by Carlos on Aug 16, 2010 23:15:18 GMT -6
Nah. If anything the magnetic coating would be too much for most pilots.
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Rabite
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Post by Rabite on Aug 17, 2010 11:40:00 GMT -6
Yeah, that's what I meant, it'll be like how the GM Custom was made for skilled pilots and all, it was kind of like a test type too so it won't be a regular GM.
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Hectator
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Post by Hectator on Aug 17, 2010 18:33:25 GMT -6
Actually the MS in question already exists. Its called the RMS-106 Hi-Zack.
All it is in essence is a Zaku II refined using V Project technology. I mean all the older sources (EB 1 + 2, MS Encyclopedia, The Anime Special Zeta Gundam reference books, the 1/144 Z + ZZ model kits, etc) pretty much agree on this.
In particular, the original Prototype Hi-Zack (RX-106) mentioned in the 1/144 Marine Hi-Zack manual is basically described as an updated Zaku II with the interior of the GM/Gundam (other than the panoramic seat, which actually they've recently mentioned in the latest MS Encyclopedia was a retrofit and the design didn't originally have this). Which is why the Marine Hi-Zack and other units like the Desert Zaku and Zaku Mariner from ZZ look identical to old OYW machines, but have performance on-par with post-war machines.
As for a "true" Zeon-specific machine that really fits that description, it would be the MS-06R-3 "Zaku III" mentioned in MSV (note: NOT the MS-06R-3S from M-MSV that is basically a Gelgoog testbed, the R-3 from MSV always seemed to me to be a refined, mass production version of the R-2P from the description of it).
Zeon decided on passing over it for the more ambitious Gelgoog (they did the same thing with its predecessor the R-2, choosing the Rick Dom instead) but it pretty much had performance superior to a GM (it was one of the Zaku types that led to the Hi-Zack along with the Zaku F2, while the Neo-Zeon Zaku III seems to be a combination of the Zaku Kai and the Zaku R3) and could use a beam rifle so yeah... I think its about as close to what Harbie is describing (basically a Hi-Zack built with OYW Zeon technology)
And the Gelgoog can't really be considered just a "Super Zaku"/"Zaku III" since according to the MS Encyclopedia it was made "Using knowhow gathered from every mobile suit, including the amphibious types"
For instance it used rocket thrusters that also function as jet thrusters when on Earth, allowing things like limited hovering (Dom) and jet assisted jumps (Gouf), both of which are seen being performed in ZZ Gundam; and before James says it for the millionth time, I'm talking about the red, OYW-vinatage on Masai uses (you can tell as her's lacks a panoramic cockpit), not the blue EFF-upgraded (or possibly built) that Dido of the ALF Blue Team uses. Though honestly the only thing changed in that blue Gelgoog was probably the cockpit being replaced by a Hi-Zack one (i.e. better cockpit design, enhanced sensors and electronics, but same reactor output).
As an interesting aside, both the Zaku Kai and Rick Dom II are said in their respective 1/144 model kit manuals to incorporate design elements from the Gelgoog into their designs; which explains why the Zaku Kai in 0080 can hover (it has the same thrusters in its backpack that the Gelgoog has in its skirt so it can probably boost up into the air like a Gouf too by using those). And given that the Gelgoog Jaeger and Rick Dom II use the same thruster setup in their skirt armor and legs, this likely means the RDII can be used on earth just like the Gelgoog - i.e. it can hover for short distances and so on (explaining its ridiculously high ground running speed for a heavy mobile suit).
As for magnet coating, I've heard that its mentioned in one of the newer MS encyclopedias that the Galbaldy Beta (and IIRC the Gelgoog) had magnet coating too, which probably adds to the difficulty in piloting the thing which explains why only veteran EFSF units seemed to use it. If the Gelgoog has it too it would also explain why the new cadets piloting it at A Baoa Qu were total fail despite the fact in everything but armor it exceeds the Gundam performance-wise. I need to dig up that old thread (threads?).
Now I wish someone (like myself) had archived the threads about the EFF-built Zeon units and Axis-upgraded OYW Zeon designs seen throughout Z/ZZ that Mark had made over on the Gundam Evolutions boards.
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Vorbote
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Post by Vorbote on Aug 17, 2010 20:14:43 GMT -6
For some reason I want to make an AU RP where the Zaku was made as I described it above.
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Hectator
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Post by Hectator on Aug 18, 2010 18:45:36 GMT -6
Zakus at Loum + beam rifles = entire EFSF wiped out in a matter of hours.
Edit: Also. Did you mean what if they were built EXACTLY like the GM? Meaning half-assedly, watered down from the original version, idiot basic controls that can't be modified for personal fighting style, and overall built by the lowest bidder with the aim of quantity over quality making it (and I'm quoting this from, IIRC, the MSV book) "an accident-prone machine".
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Hectator
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Post by Hectator on Aug 18, 2010 18:53:28 GMT -6
For some reason I want to make an AU RP where the Zaku was made as I described it above. EFF would have to have some MS of their own pre-war like in The Origin (even if they were just Guntanks and Guncannons like in said manga) for it to be even REMOTELY interesting.
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Hectator
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Post by Hectator on Aug 19, 2010 19:05:59 GMT -6
You can't really say something that came from an official source is obsolete just because it doesn't fit in your ear.
As an example of how IMO its still accurate is that the GM's in MS IGLOO would just up and explode if the pilots tried to push them past anything but basic performance.
Edit: Also. A better Zaku from the start wouldn't make it less one sided, it would just make it more one-sided in the other direction since the EFF would have been wiped out to a unit in every early engagement and forced to surrender instead of just signing a treaty following the colony actually hitting Jaburo.
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Post by Carlos on Aug 19, 2010 20:06:16 GMT -6
Right. Because MS igloo makes perfect sense. The Zudah, prone to explosion, out paces a GM. That's just some plot armor to make the Zudah pilot seem more heroic. Every Zeon perspective Igloo episode depicts Zeons dying heroically. Regardless of whether it makes sense.
The GM is a solid machine. Until Igloo it was never depicted as "accident prone" that's just some outdated material. Hence why it's never repeated in other sources and why it wasn't depicted until some Nazified-Zeon biased person got the go ahead to animate large quantities of over the top heroic deaths.
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Red
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Post by Red on Aug 19, 2010 20:09:26 GMT -6
The Federation would still win, it would just be a more costly war. The beam weaponry on the GM was hardly of the same caliber as the beam rifles carried by the Gundam and GMs often just used conventional weaponry anyway. I also contest that the GM was not a terrible mobile suit by any stretch of the imagination, and was nearly on par with the Gelgoog. However, conventional weaponry like tanks and fighters are far from useless against mobile suits and even in the beginning the Federation still had superior manpower and a slightly better Zaku (ie. GM) would not have "wiped out to a unit" the Federation by a long shot. It might have simply meant them losing 80% as opposed to 70% of their initial fleet which would be quickly rebuilt, as they did.
And honestly, even with beam weaponry Amuro wouldn't have had that much more trouble dispatching Zeon soldiers as: 1. He seemed to hardly ever run into skilled pilots. 2. He beat (handily) every ace he ran into. 3. He's Amuro.
My two cents.
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Post by gihrenloyalist on Aug 20, 2010 4:14:30 GMT -6
Right. Because MS igloo makes perfect sense. The Zudah, prone to explosion, out paces a GM. That's just some plot armor to make the Zudah pilot seem more heroic. Every Zeon perspective Igloo episode depicts Zeons dying heroically. Regardless of whether it makes sense. No, the Zudah outpaces the GM because it's smaller, and produces more thrust, in fact, given that it was designed around the same time as the Zaku I, and boasts such high performance is probably why it's so unstable. To put in my own word about the actual subject of the thread, i've read Zeon would have secured it's independence had the Gelgoog been rolled out just 2 months earlier.
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Post by Carlos on Aug 20, 2010 12:13:23 GMT -6
Sigh. By out paces. I mean it out lasts it before exploding. The reason why it was rejected in favor of the Zaku I.
An explosion prone suit. Out lasted a GM. That has not before Igloo been depicted as accident prone. Considering the development that went into the GM. I doubt it. Granted it was made for Mass production. But I do not think they created something akin to the Gaza-C which is claimed to be so poorly manufactured that after 3 sorties it would be unworkable. This isn't a small group at an asteroid.
This the engineering corp of the Earth Federation. They had the very stable Zaku II to use as a point of reference. On top of that they had the RX-78-1. The RX-78-2 of course. We saw how that performed.
So to say that it was made by the cheapest bidder. Is making the assumption that they took shortcuts. The mass production aspect of the GM is clear. They removed the supplemental generators that the Gundam has. It is made of Titanium instead of Luna Titanium. It carries the more compact beam spray gun, which is likely the result of shortening the focusing chamber and possibly mega particles dispensed per shot. It doesn't have the core block system. A big simple visor is used for the head. It's exterior is very plain. With little detail. It was made to be economical. But the engineers have more then enough data on how to make a functioning suit that isn't accident prone.
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