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Post by gihrenloyalist on Aug 20, 2010 16:44:20 GMT -6
In all fairness to MS IGLOOs GMs, think about how many GMs were made in such a short period of time. It's not a stretch of the imagination that some of them would be...defective.
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Post by Carlos on Aug 20, 2010 19:59:25 GMT -6
There have always been claims about the Federation possessing a greater manufacturing ability compared to Zeon. As many Zakus are claimed to have been produced in the scope of the war. One of those could be just as easily defective.
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Post by gihrenloyalist on Aug 20, 2010 21:21:32 GMT -6
The Zeons were producing Zakus before, and throughout the war. Keep in mind by the time the original Gundam starts 8 months have passed, so all the GMs throughout the OYW were produced in 3-4 months. When you calculate in that the Zeons had been producing suits for much longer then the Federals it becomes more likely the federals would have more problems.
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Post by Carlos on Aug 20, 2010 21:29:57 GMT -6
The Federation was also able to field another space fleet. I think it is more of a case of sheer manufacturing power. The Federation had the very Zakus as a basis for their own suits. The GM wasn't the first suit they produced. They also produced a small batch of RGM-79G and RX-79G. So it's not like they had no experience in the manufacture of mobile suits.
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Hectator
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Post by Hectator on Aug 21, 2010 20:01:51 GMT -6
Carlos: as if the whole idea that the Gundam could take constant fire for half an hour each episode and not die, then do it all over again, yet subsequent suits made from Luna Titanium like the GM and Gundam [G] are shown being taken down by the same weapons (bazookas, cannons and even machine guns) makes sense? Or that the Gundam seems to outperform everything thrown at it, but the GM trips and dies every time it shows up in one of the OVA series other than when a named character is using it, like a Leo? I'd say that the only thing keeping the GM team in 0083 alive - for example - is a healthy dose of plot shielding.
As for it not being depicted that the GM is unreliable, it doesn't really have to when it only appears three times in animation (MSG, Zeta and ZZ) and all three times doesn't have a very good showing (I will admit that in ZZ it does okay in a sneak attack, but its then then said that following Argama leaving Dakar they were wiped out almost to a man, something which is actually shown in the Mirage of Zeon manga); to counter your argument, its never shown to be unusually reliable either, gets more-or-less masacred during its first appearance (the battle at Jaburo in MSG), and isn't depicted as overwhelmingly superior to the Zeon MS in either of the other battles it appears in (Solomon or A Baoa Qu). >.>
Loki: Maybe you're just misunderstanding me. The sources when all taken into account seem to indicate that the GM was basically the T-34 or M4 Sherman of mobile suits; it had the necessary qualities for it to at times overpower its competition (better firepower and - at least against Zakus - mobility, for example), but it was a flawed machine, was made mainly for mass production not for high-performance, and wasn't as well-crafted as the Zeon machines.
Like how allied tanks other than the British ones weren't as quality crafted as the German tanks; just that this also meant German tanks couldn't be churned out as quickly, much like Zeon MS while took longer to make, especially the late-war designs like the Dom and Gelgoog. They could perform well when used in numbers, but your unit wasn't going to overwhelm the enemy without casualties (or at all if you were only at 1-to-1 odds) so nobody envied the pilots.
Something they also have in common with the WW2 Sherman is they're said to have inferior armor to even the Zaku in terms of how heavy the armoring is as well as armor material, meaning that if they were hit they'd more than likely be destroyed; IRL titanium alone isn't exactly the best thing to use as armor (for one it burns/combusts easier), hence why there's titanium aircraft but not titanium tanks, and why when an aircraft is designed for ground attack (i.e. it'll probably be taking anti-air fire more often) its got steel armoring. This is most likely why the Federation starts making the newer versions of the GM from the GM Kai/Command onwards with a ceramic composite instead of just plain titanium.
And the highlighting of the GMs flaws are ALWAYS the reason given for why the Hi-Zack was made. As an attempt to root out all the flaws of the GM by taking what was good about it and putting it in a Zaku frame, a machine known for its reliability and ease of maintenance/repair/adaptability.
You can call it outdated, but this same information keeps getting repeated whenever they make new sourcebooks and try to explain why the EFF suddenly switches to the Zaku-based Hi-Zack and the entirely Zeon-engineered Galbaldy instead of developing a next-generation GM (the GM II is said to be such a minor change that its hardly any better than the original when facing other machines during the Gryps conflict, hence the GM pilot at Gryps bitching about how old/obsolete his suit is before Char blasts him)
Ex. The MG GM Kai kit says the reason that the GM Kai + GM Custom was discontinued and development of the non-GM RMS-series machines pursued following 0083 was due to the poor showing of the GMs against obsolete Zeon machines like the Zaku and Rick Dom. Therefore the only development the GM gets in the 0084-0087 period is a slight overhaul to make the existing GM units not so long-in-the-tooth (something that it still fails to do since GM IIs are basically the Leos of Zeta Gundam) - while the only place that's a confirmed production site for new GM IIs is Gryps, and likely because initially the Titans didn't want any Zeon-type MS polluting their sphere of influence when they initially took control of Side 7; I mean they did exclude all the former Zeon engineers when they made the Gundam Mk II, another less than stellar machine.
As for the GM III... that isn't even originally a Federation machine. Karaba develops it in an attempt to make the GM II units they have less crappy, mainly due to the fact they lost most of their Nemos and Anahiem would rather give MS to Axis than them (Sturm Dias, Bawoo, etc; probably a lot of those Marasai and Hi-Zack suits too since I honestly doubt they're ALL captured).
Carlos/Gihrenguy: I've read that the Zaku II F and S types were partly made pre-war and stockpiled in preparation for if the conflict became protracted, or at least that's the story according to the MG kit manuals. This also explains why if you use production numbers to count them up, around 80 of the Zakus at Loum would have to be F or S-types instead of Zaku Is or C-types.
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Hectator
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Post by Hectator on Aug 21, 2010 20:03:59 GMT -6
The Federation was also able to field another space fleet. I think it is more of a case of sheer manufacturing power. The Federation had the very Zakus as a basis for their own suits. The GM wasn't the first suit they produced. They also produced a small batch of RGM-79G and RX-79G. So it's not like they had no experience in the manufacture of mobile suits. Yeah but their first attempt at a MS - the RRF-06 Zanny - was just to simply copy the Zaku, and it proved inferior to the actual Zaku. Given that was the machine the Gundam/GM developed off of, I'm still skeptical the GM is as wonderful a machine as you seem to make it out to be. I think the Gundam was just so effective because of all its bells and whistles, and without those the GM - despite being developed several years afterward - was just a step above a Zaku, and inferior to a Dom or Gelgoog in all respects but producability.
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Post by Carlos on Aug 21, 2010 21:12:09 GMT -6
well if you interpreted it as wonderful machine. That is your choice.
However my point was that it was not accident prone. And since the plot armor excuse is thrown out there. Well then there you go. It's all for the plot that they be sacrificed. I never said it was an incredible suit. Though I do think it was not used to it's potential. At the very least it wasn't accident prone.
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Rabite
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Post by Rabite on Aug 21, 2010 21:49:19 GMT -6
Opps, forgot about this thread...
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I think everyone is forgetting about something...
What will happen if the Zeon does start with a stronger Zaku, since the data that EFF first had about MS was from captured Zakus, and they went on from there to build their own, if the data they received were better than they had in MSG, won't that mean the Gundam would be stronger?
If the Gundam is even more advance, than the GM would be affected the same way, so unless Zeon could do as they planned, and win in one go, they'll still lose in the end.
Also, sure having a stronger MS would mean you can fight the battles easier, but it also means it'll cost more, the Zeon's advances got stopped because they wouldn't supply the front after expanding too quickly, if they spend more money on stronger units, it'll mean they'll have less of them, and in the end, possibly do even worse than in MSG.
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GM & Gundam's abilities:
Given that the GM actually have higher spec than the Gundam in some parts, I don't believe the Gundam is actually that powerful, but the Zeons, however, do believe so.
With Amuro's fame and all the crazy things he did, the Zeons were scared of the white EFF Mobile Suit, wiki does say that the Zeons were shocked at the GM at first, because it looked similar to the Gundam.
Umon from Crossbone Gundam mentioned he manage to kill... I believe it was 6 Rick Doms, using a Ball, after making it look like the Gundam head.
So it's not the Gundam's ability that's helping it fight, but the image to the Zeons that it's nearly invincible, and that image passed down to the GM.
I also like this saying I saw once, "Amuro is not powerful because he's piloting the Gundam, the Gundam is powerful because Amuro is piloting it.", the pilot is more important than the MS, if Char was using the Zaku Bazooka the first time it saw the Gundam, Amuro would have died on the spot.
One of the reason why I think Zaku seems to function better than GMs until the end of the war, they had better, more experienced pilots, until Amuro passed down his data to them, they were basically rookies with the exception of some Aces, so of course they seem like they'll drop like flies.
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The GM should be as reliable as the Gundam is, as their basic forms are the same, like Carlos said, expensive equipments are taken out, but all the basics are still there, the only problem GMs had was during Odessa, when the normal GMs were first field at larger numbers for the first time, we could also blame this on the field mechanics, since MS would be new to them and they might have problems tuning it up to the best.
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GM dying a lot:
As for the GMs dying in mass numbers... well, Zakus died in mass numbers too, does that mean they're useless? Not really, it just means that more of the unit were produced, and had a higher chance of people seeing it getting killing, so I don't think we should use this as an argument.
Also, in later creations, GMs have scenes where they're shown as better units than they were in MSG, for example, there's a scene in Encounter in Space(Movie) where it cuts a Rick Dom in half with it's Beam Saber.
In the novel, it's even stronger than the Gundam, and since the novel is suppose to be how Tomino wanted it to be, I'm assuming that GMs weak because Sunrise wanted something that dies often.
Besides, most Gundam types are dead by the end of their series, with a few exceptions, but that doesn't mean they're as bad as a grunt unit.
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GM III:
As for GM III not being a EFF unit... Karaba should be counted as a part of the EFF just like the AEUG was, then in that case, all the AEUG/Karaba based units should be count as a part of the EFF unit tree just like how Axis/Neo Zeon units are to the Zeons.
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Hi Zack/GM II:
Neo Zeon having Titans unit might be related to events like Gundam Sentinel, some Titans based groups had deals with the Neo Zeon, like how the New Decades' Zodiac was built by the Neo Zeons.
And as for the Hi Zack functioning better than the GM II... in the novel, if we go by what Jerid said, the Hi Zack functions better than Gundam Mk-II, so it's kind of unfair to compare it with the GM II, which was getting old.
The GM II was, like everyone knows, a minor changed GM, it was given a Beam Rifle, extra sensors are added in, and the Panoramic Monitor was added in too, it was an attempt to modernize the GM, but cost was the priority.
The Hi Zack however, was built as a brand new unit, and it was built at a later date than GM II, so to compare it with the GM II it'll be like comparing the Rick Dom with a Zaku IIF.
And the Hi Zack was used even in Gundam Unicorn, so if you're comparing it you should use Nemo instead, though it's not a RGM type, I myself consider it a part of the GM family.
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Gelgoog:
I do not believe that if the Gelgoog is out 2 months earlier it'll save Zeon, because the Gelgoog, had different controls, and it was look downed on by veterans that were used to the Zaku and Dom, if it's 2 months of ceasefire for them to get used to the MS it might help, but 2 months of battle with a new unit would just get more of them killed, and less manpower for Zeon.
Also, the Gelgoog that are used in later series... shouldn't be count as Gelgoogs, as they were repaired with newer parts, like the one in Zeta was repaired using Nemo parts, so its half a Nemo, or else it won't have the ability to be used in Zeta.
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GM Kai:
Err... Loki... the GM Kai was the main EFF mobile suit in 0083, there's tons of them, some were even used in A Baoa Qu, and they were used until the GM II were made.
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Hectator
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Post by Hectator on Aug 26, 2010 21:03:22 GMT -6
I fail to see how you can say it was Amuro's abilities since he didn't even do anything spectacular for the first 20-30 something episodes. Prior to that he just used the Gundam like a giant, walking black box shrugging off any attacks thrown at it.
I mean all the bases he destroyed on Earth were just him throwing an emo tantrum with bullets bouncing off of the Gundam left and right.
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Post by gihrenloyalist on Sept 15, 2010 12:55:15 GMT -6
Hi Zack/GM II: Neo Zeon having Titans unit might be related to events like Gundam Sentinel, some Titans based groups had deals with the Neo Zeon, like how the New Decades' Zodiac was built by the Neo Zeons. I actually have my own theory as to why Hizacks and Marasais were used by Neo Zeon and how they got a hold of them. I've read that the EF and AEUG took the Alexandria Class out of service because it was a painful reminder of the Titans, so maybe they did the same with the Titans Mobile Suits, and when Neo Zeon started their Earth Decent operation they found tons of perfectly good, modern mobile suits sitting there waiting to go to the scrap yard that their pilots were already trained to use (As they were all based off Zeon designs).
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Hectator
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Post by Hectator on Sept 15, 2010 14:51:54 GMT -6
Well that's sort-of my logic.
Anaheim produced the Marasai (and according to AoZ the Hi-Zack too, though every other source contradicts this, saying it was an in-house EFF design made to combine the best features of the Zaku and GM series'). And the Marasai was originally intended for the AEUG according to some of the sourcebooks; it was a rival design of the Nemo, but the Nemo was chosen for its "friendlier" GM-like appearance that wouldn't upset the sensibilities of the Earth Sphere's citizens, who had been terrorized not only by Zeon Zakus in the OYW, but also by Zaku-like Hi-Zacks piloted by Titans in the years leading up to the Gryps War. Choosing a machine that was essentially a suped-up Zaku could potentially be a PR disaster for a group trying to play the role of the "good guys" in such a situation, especially when their primary recruiting gimmick is to get EFF troops to desert to them.
(As a note: The Nemo was made entirely using EFF-style tech, while the Marasai was made entirely using Zeon-style tech, which I assume means its Zaku/Gelgoog-like in its internal workings so I would think it'd be easy for Axis/ZR pilots to transition over from an actual Zeon-made machine.)
Anyways... considering that the Sturm Dias, originally intended for the AEUG, was sold by Anaheim instead to Neo-Zeon following the AEUG fleet's near-annihilation, I wouldn't put it past Anaheim to have also started supplying Neo-Zeon with Marasais since the original customer for them - the Titans, who had been buying them in large numbers to try to augment their Hi-Zacks, until they could come up with an in-house replacement like the Barzam or Xeku that didn't leave them reliant on Anaheim - was also near-entirely annihilated, yet there was now a new customer who would jump at the chance to integrate more Zeon-style technology into its ranks, especially when the closest thing to a "basic"/"grunt" MS they had, other than old OYW-vintage machines like the ReGelg, were the transformable Gaza-series (which while less expensive than most transformers, was still in all liklihood more expensive than a Nemo or GM II/III, the most likely opponents for Neo-Zeon to be facing at the time.)
As for the Hi-Zack, I have a feeling that (like the Dowadge, Desert Zaku, Zaku Mariner, and Asshimar) the reason so many ended up in Neo-Zeon hands was that:
- 1: the Titans stripped away much of the personnel from Earthside EFF bases after aquiring the support of the NT Labs/ during their chase of the Audhumla halfway across Earth and the subsequent campaign against Karaba, as well as stripping away most of the personnel garrisoning colonies and military bases in space to fortify the Gate of Zedan. Following the mutual near-annihilation of the AEUG and Titans fleets, any surviving EFF personnel would have been scattered and in small numbers, not enough to keep Zeon Remnants or Axis patrols from and looting what remained of the EFF's units, while they probably still had stockpiles of machines sitting around, their pilots moved elsewhere (or if they're older machines like the EFF-made Zakus they might have already been retired in favor of newer units.)
Especially in the case of the AEUG/Karaba pilots who probably deserted without their MS, knowing they'd be trading a GM II or Hi-Zack for a shiny new Nemo. And even moreso for the ground combat machines like the Desert Zaku and Dowadge, who probably had their pilots transferred up to space and were left in some hangar only to be captured by emboldened Zeon Remnants, anti-EFF rebels, and eventually the Axis advance forces that landed prior to Haman's arrival on Earth.
Specialist machines like the Eye-Zack and the host of Zaku-based variants seen in Zeta Gundam were probably similarly left at the base their pilots came from in favor of giving the pilots general-purpose units, since things like Zaku Recon Types or Zaku Cannons either have too limited or a total lack of combat capability to be effective against 2nd Generation MS (Nemo, Marasai, Barzam, etc)
- 2: The Neo-Zeons were able to at least temporarily occupy each Side (Mashmyre is doing this in the opening of ZZ to Shangri-La colony, and Chara is actually transferred to him after occupying "El Dorado", while the other Neo-Zeon notables do the same off-screen to the rest of the colonies), so it isn't much of a stretch to imagine that save for Luna II the Axis fleet was able to occupy the understaffed EFF bases (Granada, Von Braun, Konpeitoh, Fifth Luna, the remains of Pezun, etc) long enough to loot everything they possibly could.
They may have tried occupying them longer (the AMX-121 Quel Doga from Double Fake is described as having had a similar role to the GM Quel, i.e. garrison and "internal security" duties, and they consider that series at least semi-official since it appears in the MS guide books now) though they probably abandoned all but Side 3 by the time the infighting starts.
Especially considering some of those places had practically lost potentially 80-90% of their assigned personnel due to the Federation's infighting. Really only Luna II is mentioned as being able to hold off a Neo-Zeon attack (they were after its nukes), and that was probably because all the EFSF survivors rallied there, like they always do when they get whipped in a big fight.
- 3: While they aligned themselves with the Titans, the NT Labs were evolutions of the Flanagan Institute - a Zeon institution - and likely they and most of the ex-Zeon engineers who joined the EFF post-war (most of them based at Granada, which - ta-da - was the production site for the Hi-Zack AND Marasai) jumped ship once again after Axis arrived, bringing everything from technical skill to machines with them. This also explains how Neo-Zeon got ahold of the Psyco Gundam Mk II, Asshimar, and Gundam Mk V (which they would use to develop both the Doven Wolf and Geymark).
- 4: The main MS of the Republic of Zeon during the Gryps-era seems to be the Hi-Zack (maybe given to them by the Titans, or the EFF, or Anaheim, or a combination thereof), and the Hi-Zack Custom and EWAC Zack variants are shown to be in their ranks in Gundam Unicorn. Seeing how Haman was given control of Side 3 after capturing the Federal senate, its likely whatever remained of the RoZ military fell into her hands as well, Hi-Zacks and anything else included.
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