Hectator
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Pathologically High-Spirited
Never forget. Your NT hero threw a cripple off a mountain.
Posts: 547
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Post by Hectator on Jun 15, 2014 23:02:22 GMT -6
Oh wow, I was actually talking to another friend of mine about that after finding where someone had been badmouthing the (IMO) beautiful Shoji Kawamori designs from the Japanese edition of Battletech over on the Classic Battletech forums. Which, they take a lot of design cues from his Armored Core stuff, but still feel like something that operates with the same set of physics as BT mechs. Rather than being the "flying kung-fu robots" the person was accusing them of being.
But basically my friend expressed the opinion that mechs shouldn't just be big "dumpsters on legs". Which was in reference to both a lot of the TRO art, and to how a lot of the people on the forums seem to want mechs to move a certain ungraceful, sluggish, restricted way that contrasts with how anime mecha tend to have more mobility than the other types of units around them.
Though if they're such big ugly, unwieldy machines there's really no reason to even go through the trouble of building a legged unit if its movements are all sluggish, since aerospace and tank units use the same tech and mount the same weapons and armor. Especially if its a lighter tank with high mobility (for a tank) like the T90 where the thing can actually get up to a high enough speed it could run circles around a "walking dumpster".
I'm not saying mechs should be pretty or flashy (in the same way a Gundam or anime giant robot is, obviously all the energy weapons are flashy! And the bright paint jobs can make them stand out too), but they should at least be practical and look like something designed for a future military to use.
Really the light mechs at least should move like some anime real robots do, like the Labors in Patlabor. Or how the land type MS in 08th are portrayed in the early episodes (like the Zakus and Gundam G-types plodding around in the jungle),
You could even make an argument for the mediums and heavies to move more like the Macross Destroids that the majority of 3025 heavies are based on. Though, in the video games at least it seemed to me like they did. Just no thrusters for space combat.
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Post by Carlos on Jun 19, 2014 23:16:14 GMT -6
I agree with the assessment that for mechs to be successful. They need to be capable of fluid movement. If they're using artificial muscle. It seems to me that they could conceivably create something that could move more fluid then plodding slugish brutes.
It's also stupid that people would renounce anime, Battletech has a strong foundation in Anime designs, even if it did end up causing problems later.
My hope. Is to make it so people have to research each tonnage of Mech. So if you wanted a 100 ton mech. You'd have to pay out the required research points. Which would probably take a long time. But to keep it from taking too long the heaviest chassis under the one you're researching is subtracted from the weight.
I was originally considering having a hard point system. But then realized it kinda trivializes making new designs since one mech could do everything. And that's something I want to encourage.
I'm really considering doing an RP now. There's a few things I want to happen. 1. A central authority. Kinda like the last Galactic Civs Rp. An Empire type. It would have access to the largest designs from the start. And essentially provide a 20 ton light design that all factions start with.
2. Mechs are in low numbers early on. But NPC factions would provide mechs on the open market. I've also been my brain with the idea of how to make Mercs viable.
3. Because of the limited number of mechs that can be produced at a time. Old designs can become obsolete through no longer being in production.
Hopefully I can get around to working the research aspect tomorrow.
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Richter
Veteran Member
Posts: 1,870
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Post by Richter on Jun 19, 2014 23:26:11 GMT -6
I really liked the GalCiv idea, shame that died out. I think you moved the plot in that a bit too fast though, least when I got in there. The whole thing about the succession of the throne and stuff was done and over with way too fast before any meaningful developments could really come to fruition from, what should have been, an extremely destabilizing series of events. So if you do that sort of thing again I'd be a little more cautious in how fast you move plot elements forward.
Evan's original GG ideas were also pretty awesome, if anyone remembers those. The one with the outer colonies and earth centric power blocs squaring off. I was really hyped for that before Evan fell off the face of the world for like, 2 years with no exaggeration. All the fluidity to develop interesting ideas in the both of those were very appealing. Also the spreadsheets, I fuckin love spreadsheets.
Sucks I didn't get to use plant mangs much, I put Effort into that, heh.
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Post by Carlos on Jun 19, 2014 23:59:41 GMT -6
Well the plot pushing was all Pitman's doing. He was always wanting to keep the plot going and going. Though in the case of the throne succession. It only destabilized slightly because the Empress was a little batshit and being manipulated. But fortunately the Eugenic Program for creating Emperors ensured that there was always a sibling of equal ability close by. Though in that case she'd nearly been killed by the Order of Assassins that had been manipulating behind the scenes. Fortunately engineered Emperor candidates don't die easily. In fact they're practically super human. Something I tried to keep a secret. ;o
The other thing I forgot to add to my idea. Was I wanted the central authority to encourage fighting amongst the smaller factions. As a way of growth through conflict. But with very clear rules about how war is to be conducted. Like obviously no super weapons like nukes. No destroying factories, cities, or infrastructure. And even no killing of prisoners. To ensure that if it ever came to it. Humanity would still have a foundation for fighting aliens.
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Richter
Veteran Member
Posts: 1,870
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Post by Richter on Jun 20, 2014 0:19:36 GMT -6
I'll take your word for it because I kind of came in late to that deal, but I'd have certainly liked to see more of it. I like politicing around and plotlines like that in RP's like this, which was again part of why I liked the GG idea where you'd have to deal with no only your blocmates, but the other bloc as well and neutrals in the whole shebang.
The infighting idea was something I put forward for Pit's latest rp here. My inspiration for it was the condoterrie period of the Italian states before the unification of the state we know as Italy today. So in other words, there'd be fighting but it wouldn't involve crippling infrastructure or using things that cause wholesale destruction of cities and environments (napalm, lethal chemical weapons, etc) and would set back the entire nation when a scuffle inevitable ensued between two nobles. Something like that is definitely workable, I think. Other reason behind it was so that no one gets their shit kicked so hard they quit the RP because they'd be set back irreparably. Which does fucking suck, admittedly, and was an issue in AUC 1 years ago.
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Post by Carlos on Jun 20, 2014 10:02:06 GMT -6
Lol yeah. People losing tended to put people off continuing an RP. I'm thinking of doing it where people have a paycheck that is essentially part of their private holdings and supporters. So even if they lose their territory. They can still keep playing and being a pain in someone's ass.
One of the ideas I was thinking of is Production Capacity. Each major city would have a maximum production capacity. Production Capacity would however only be used for mechs, tanks and fighters above a certain weight
Production Lines would be a thing as well. Since I intend for people not to be able to instant build their units. They'll have to pay for them and they'll arrive their next paycheck. The PLs will deliver them sooner. But also be limited in the number of units. So a single production line will only build up to X amount of units at a time. Placing the production Lines in a city will reduce the production capacity requirement. Placing them in a base or somewhere else they'll have a production capacity of their own. So it's possible to expand. But PLs built in cities will be cheaper.
I hope to have a lot of planets. But most of them be places with singular resources. So they might not be worth garrisoning, but good enough for people to want to raid them. And if someone loses their primary planet. They could just take what troops they have and take a lightly defended planet. Or even go to an asteroid belt and setup some hidden production lines.
Well that's what I'm hoping. Though it all has to get written out and flesh out first! As they say talk is cheap. ;o
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Richter
Veteran Member
Posts: 1,870
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Post by Richter on Jun 20, 2014 10:29:57 GMT -6
Well sounds pretty slick all the same. If you have income from sources other than just straight territory it'd help mercs and other unusual groups be more useful in the scheme of things too, because in these sorts of things they almost always tend to lag behind from lack of a steady income. So eventually, things would end up too lopsided to really make a dent compared to the exponential growth of a landed group.
Loki was trying to work on fixing that for Pit's RP so we don't run into that problem again. As you know that game's been going extremely slowly so I can't tell you if it'll work or not.
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Post by Carlos on Jun 20, 2014 18:40:44 GMT -6
So I was trying to write down the basic weight and crit slot specs of weapons. And then I got to ER weapons and light versions of weapons. We could just follow what they have. But I was thinking. Instead we could have people research ways of improving the base weapons in ways that they choose. So like you could make a light version of an AC20. It would cost you a lot of research points, maybe even require an increase in slots or something like that. I think it it would make it a little more interesting.
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Richter
Veteran Member
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Post by Richter on Jun 20, 2014 21:33:21 GMT -6
I'd probably roll with that. Could help make weapons across factions end up more unique. Clan Hell's Horses, for instance, cooked up chemical lasers so that their tanks could roll with laser weapons without needing fusion power plants. Was one of their more unique features, and imo, was cool as hell. Being one example anyway, could research that off of the baseline laser.
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Post by Carlos on Jun 20, 2014 22:36:47 GMT -6
This is pretty much what I've been working on throughout the day in between doing other things.
(Engine x 1.5)/(tons/10) + 10 =
(250 x 1.5)/(75/10) + 10 =
.15 Ton per 5 Armor .03 Ton per 1 Armor
Mech Structure Components
Life Support - 2 slots Sensors - 2 slots Cockpit - 1 slot
Gyro - 4 slots
Shoulder - 1 slot Upper Arm Actuator - 1 slot
Lower Arm Actuator - 1 slot Hand Actuator - 1 slot
Hip - 1 slot Upper Leg Actuator - 1 slot Lower Leg Actuator - 1 slot Foot Actuator - 1 slot
AC20 - 10 Slots - 14 Tons LB-20X - 9 Slots - 12 Tons Ultra AC/20 - 10 Slots - 15 Tons
AC10 - 7 Slots - 12 Tons LB-10X - 6 slots - 11 Tons Ultr AC/10 - 7 Slots - 13
AC5 - 4 Slots - 8 Tons LB-5X - 4 slots - 7 Tons Ultra AC/5 - 5 slots - 9 Tons
AC2 - 1 slot - 6 Tons LB-2X - 3 Slots - 5 Tons Ultra AC/2 - 3 Slots - 7 tons
Machine Gun - 1 slot - .5 Tons
ER PPC - 3 slots - 7 Tons PPC - 3 slots - 7 Tons Large Laser - 2 slots - 5 Tons ER Large Laser - 2 slots - 5 tons Large Pulse Laser - 2 slots - 7 Tons ER Large Pulse Laser - 3 Slots - 7 Tons Medium Laser - 1 slot - 1 ton ER Medium Laser - 1 slot - 1 ton Medium Pulse Laser - 1 slot - 2 tons ER Medium Pulse Laser - 2 slot - 2 tons Small Laser - 1 slot - .5 Tons ER Small Laser Small Pulse Laser - 1 slot - 1 Ton ER Small Pulse laser - 1 slot - 1.5 Tons Flamer - 1 slot - 1 Ton Heavy Flamer - 1 slot - 1.5 Tons
SRM2 - 1 Slot - 1 Ton SRM4 - 1 slot - 2 Tons SRM6 - 2 Slots - 3 Tons Streak SRM 2 - 1 Slot - 1.5 Tons Streak SRM 4 - 1 Slot - 3 Tons Streak SRM 6 - 2 slots - 4.5 Tons MRM10 - 2 slots - 3 Tons MRM20 - 3 slots - 7 Tons MRM30 - 5 slots - 10 Tons MRM40 - 7 slots - 12 Tons LRM5 - 1 slot - 2 Tons LRM10 - 2 Slots - 5 Tons LRM15 - 3 Slots - 7 Tons LRM20 - 5 Slots - 10 Tons NARC - 2 slots - 3 Tons
STD Engine 100 - 1 Ton - 4 heat Sinks STD Engine 105 - 2.5 Tons - 4 heat sinks STD Engine 110 - 2.5 Tons - 4 heat sinks STD Engine 115 - 3.0 Tons - 4 heat sinks STD Engine 120 - 3.0 tons - 4 heat sinks STD Engine 125 - 4.0 Tons - 5 heat sinks STD Engine 130 - 4.5 Tons - 5 heat sinks STD Engine 135 - 4.5 Tons - 5 heat sinks STD Engine 140 - 5.0 Tons - 5 heat sinks STD Engine 145 - 5.0 Tons - 5 heat sinks STD Engine 150 - 6.5 Tons - 5 heat sinks STD Engine 155 - 6.5 Tons - 6 heat sinks STD Engine 160 - 7.0 Tons - 6 heat sinks STD Engine 165 - 7.0 Tons - 6 heat sinks STD Engine 170 - 7.0 Tons - 6 heat sinks STD Engine 175 - 9.0 Tons - 7 heat sinks STD Engine 180 - 9.0 Tons - 7 heat sinks STD Engine 185 - 9.5 Tons - 7 heat sinks STD Engine 190 - 9.5 Tons - 7 heat sinks STD Engine 195 - 10 Tons - 7 heat sinks STD Engine 200 - 11.5 Tons - 8 heat sinks STD Engine 205 - 12.5 Tons - 8 heat sinks STD Engine 210 - 13 Tons - 8 heat sinks STD Engine 215 - 13.5 Tons - 8 heat sinks STD Engine 220 - 14 Tons - 8 heat sinks STD Engine 225 - 15 Tons - 9 heat sinks STD Engine 230 - 15.5 Tons - 9 heat sinks STD Engine 235 - 16 Tons - 9 heat sinks STD Engine 240 - 16.5 Tons - 9 heat sinks STD Engine 245 - 17 Tons - 9 heat sinks STD Engine 250 - 18.5 Tons - 10 heat sinks
Every mechs' base weight is 10% of their
total weight.
Each design gets a base allotment of slots.
Head - 4 Slots Center Torso - 10 slots Right Torso - 6 slots Left Torso - 6 Slots Right Arm - 6 slots Left Arm - 6 slots Right leg - 5 slots Left Leg - 5 slots
In this design system. You can choose how
many slots you want in an area to have. This
will be based on research points you spend
to add slots. However these areas will have
a cap on how many slots total they can have.
We may expand the cap, but at increased cost
of research points.
Location - Maximum Slots Head - 5 slots Center Torso - 12 Slots Right Torso - 16 Slots Left Torso - 16 slots Right Arm - 12 Slots Left Arm - 12 Slots
Each additional slot requires 1 research
point.
Every tonnage of mech has to be researched.
Each ton requires 2 points of research.
Mechs come in 5 ton intervals. If you have
existing mech designs. You can minus their
weight as already researched.
To start every faction has access to a 20
ton light mech. So if you wanted to make a
25 ton mech. You'd subtract the 20 from the
25 ton mech. Requiring only 10 research
points.
Some weapons also have to be researched to
be used. Most factions will start with small
lasers, medium lasers, AC/2, SRM 2, Machine
guns, and Flamer.
LB-X and UACs without the base AC version
researched requires 50% more points and 1
extra turn.
LRMs, SRMs, Streaks and MRMs require the
smaller versions to be researched.
Money can be used to increase research
funding reducing the turns it takes and
reducing the number of points required by
1/4th.
Research Points and turns to complete. AC20 - 12 points - 2 Turns LB-20X - 15 points - 2 turns Ultra AC/20 - 20 points - 3 turns
AC10 - 8 points - 1 turn LB-10X - 10 Points - 2 turns Ultr AC/10 - 13 points - 2 turns
AC5 6 Points - 1 turn LB-5X 8 points - 1 turn Ultra AC/5 11 points - 2 turns
LB-2X - 6 points - 1 turn Ultra AC/2 - 9 points - 2 turns
PPC - 20 points - 4 turns Large Laser - 10 points - 2 turns Large Pulse Laser - 10 points - 2 turns Medium Pulse Laser - 8 points - 2 turns Small Pulse Laser - 6 points - 2 turns Heavy Flamer - 2 points - 1 turn
SRM4 - 3 points - 1 turn SRM6 - 4 points - 1 turn Streak 2 - 6 points - 1 turn Streak 4 - 8 points - 1 turns
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Richter
Veteran Member
Posts: 1,870
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Post by Richter on Jun 20, 2014 22:46:01 GMT -6
> MRM's exist.
Wonderful.
I'd probably have to see an example build to get it nailed down completely but looks alright enough. I noticed engines don't have a slot value, is that by design? What about ammo, too? How much ammo you packed into a design was always a big part of balance in BT, and one I wouldn't mind seeing in RP's so we don't wind up with ridiculous shit like has happened in the past with endless artillery barrages or similar nonsense. I hear that was even more common in the GP days than it was here.
There going to be multiple types of armor similar to how BT had several different variants, that were then added on per ton, or is there just going to be a generic 'armor' in the final version like at the top of this list?
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Post by Carlos on Jun 20, 2014 23:22:46 GMT -6
Well from the description of MRMs. They don't sound advanced. It's basically a dummy fire rocket system. So I figured why the hell not? People have to research them anyway.
The engines do have a slot rating. I completely forgot to add at the top of the list that they all have a slot requirement of 6. XL engines will require 12, six in the CT, 3 in each side torso. And ammo completely slipped my mind. Gotta look all of those ammo per ton loads. I definitely want that to be a thing.
As for armor. I am hoping to have different types. But I'm gonna looking at the ones they have in BT. I may decide to allow people to research improvements of armor on their own. More uniqueness is good. But if it gets complicated we may go a different way.
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Richter
Veteran Member
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Post by Richter on Jun 20, 2014 23:46:30 GMT -6
Yeah MRMs are kind of hard to place. But I was always a fan of them because they were cheap and usually came in ridiculously high numbers, think they were described as the missile equivalent to autocannons. How can anyone not love that?
I can't completely recall how ammo works, but I know every gun had its own tonnage values that could very pretty wildly. I remember that caseless ammo autocannons existed somewhere that had really light ammo, but they jammed a fuckton as a result of that, so there's one potential research topic people could look into. I can't seem to find those models on Sarna for reference though, but I know I found it on there before.
IIRC, battletech had: Primitive, Industrial, Commercial, and Military Standard armor. Probably others, but those are the big classes I recall. Primitive was the stuff put on early mechs that's roughly equivalent to 21st century tank composites. Industrial is for worker mechs that need protection from shit like mining accidents and explosives, but is only middling against actual weapons. Commercial was basically PMC crap that was weaker than industrial but more efficient in ton-per-ton ratio (IE, it was lighter and cheaper). And Standard is what it says on the tin. Not sure if that helps any but can't hurt to put it out there for reference.
Almost forgot too, there were both fusion engines and ICE ones kicking around for mechs and vehicles both. Might be something to think about, ICE got used a lot in the poorer states I believe, and amongst militias and other lower end groups.
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Post by Carlos on Jun 21, 2014 12:20:31 GMT -6
Well so far I've read into the armor types. Most of them seem to be less effective per ton. When they are better they take up more critical slots or impair the mobility of the unit. So really we could come up with our designs through research. Just wiggling the ratio of crit slots around versus weight slaved. Or Other defining attributes.
I'm looking for specifics on ICE through the pdfs I have.
Updated: I also want to add things like a pressurized pile weapon for close in combat. Since melee has been depicted in art, like an Atlas or an Awesome punching the other mech. Pile weapons seem pretty devastating in other mech games. It could be a viable close in weapon system. With models varying between something that uses an actual metal line to provide the tension. A gas pressurized system. Perhaps even something that uses a plasma based pressure system to deliver a powerful melee attack.
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Richter
Veteran Member
Posts: 1,870
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Post by Richter on Jun 21, 2014 16:34:58 GMT -6
I'm not too familiar with how armor works, just that those are the types of them. So I can't really contribute a lot on that, but I guess we can see how it pans out in the early stages and plan from there. Affecting mobility seems like a good first step, not much point in having a light weight class if the assault mechs can move with as much agility and pack in more armor and guns. Which reminds me there's a very small list of ultra light mechs, if you lot never knew that. I was always a big fan of those. As for ICE I can go hunt some shit down on that if you aren't finding much. A decent starting place would be this page here. Tl;dr is ICE is much heavier than fusion for the same output, but also much, much cheaper and easier to make. Also no energy weapons (outside chemical lasers and other unique work arounds like I mentioned above). Mostly used for vehicles and second line mechs. I'm a big fan of them though because I like the Periphery states and their general gritty, frontier attitude towards construction. I seem to recall reading that they were also significantly more tolerant of heat build up than atomic powerplant mechs, but I'm not sure if that's canon for BT or if that's my Mechwarrior shit bleeding in... Something to consider either way. That link also provides some book and unit references for shit that uses ICE. On the topic of melee I know BT had it. In addition to standard melee weapons for mechs vibroblades also existed, I'm not sure if heated ones existed or not, but even if they didn't I don't think they'd be out of place here. I know hatchets showed up on a couple of mechs, I actually have a mini of one called a 'Hatchetman', you'll never guess how it's armed. One of my favorite IS designs, too. Far as pile drivers are concerned they already exist in setting, so I guess the designers thought it was pretty viable too. That version is more of an ad hoc weapon, however. I imagine one specially built for combat use would be a lot less unwieldy and a lot more compact/light.
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